Hans Thalbauer: 0:03

Many people forget that the supply chain itself can only correct and, and optimize about 20% of the efficiency rate in the entire supply chain. 80% is being decided when you design a product and when you create the product, right? And when you start making sourcing decisions. So this is where you actually define how your supply chain looks at the end, right? If you, if I define and design a product where all my components come from across the world of course I, my supply chain, my carbon footprint is really big.

Tom Raftery: 0:35

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast, the number one podcast focusing on sustainability and supply chains, and I'm your host, Tom Raftery. Hi everyone. And welcome to episode 10 of the sustainable supply chain podcast. My name is Tom Raftery, and I'm excited to be here with you today. Sharing the latest insights and trends in supply chain sustainability. Today, we're talking to Hans Thalbauer from UI Path and in upcoming episodes, I'll be talking to Marcus Hoed from Dutch X, talking about logistics. Brian Merkling from Thinaer talking about IOT, and Madhu from Schneider Electric talking about Schneider Electric's own improvements in their supply chain. So fascinating episodes coming up. If you want to be sure to catch them, follow this podcast in your podcast, app of choice. Before we kick off today's show. I want to take a moment to express my gratitude to all of this podcast's amazing supporters. Your support has been instrumental in keeping this podcast going. And I'm really grateful for each and every one of you. If you're not already a supporter. I'd like to encourage you to consider joining our community of like-minded individuals who are passionate about sustainability and supply chains. Supporting the podcast is easy and affordable with options starting as low as just three euros or dollars a month. That's less than the cost of a cup of coffee and your support will make a huge difference in keeping the show going strong. To become a supporter, simply click on the support link in the show notes of this, or any episode or visit. Tiny url.com/s S C pod. Now. Without further ado. I'd like to introduce my special guest today Hans. Hans, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Hans Thalbauer: 2:24

Thank you, Tom. Thank you for having me. And yeah, of course. My name is Hans Thalbauer. I'm looking after the global supply chain practice, at UiPath. My background is supply chain. I was working in this industry for, I would want to say 25 years now, in different companies at SAP, Google, and now at UiPath.

Tom Raftery: 2:42

Okay. And for people who might be unaware Hans, can you tell us a little bit about UiPath? Who, who are UiPath? What is it you do there?

Hans Thalbauer: 2:51

Yeah, UiPath is all about AI powered automation of business processes. there's a platform, which we use in order to apply it for business, processes. It has a discovery layer, it has an automation layer and an operation layer. The discovery layer is all about process mining the task mining and communications mining. So understanding the business processes, the automation layers, all about how to automate the business processes with AI technology, but also with software robots. And then you have an operation layer which makes it scalable for the enterprise.

Tom Raftery: 3:25

Okay, and this Hans is the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast. So what are you doing here?

Hans Thalbauer: 3:35

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm thinking, you know, about the business processes in supply chain all my life actually. And so, I'm of course very, very interested in the sustainability topic. Sustainable supply chain is one of the key drivers, I want to say. And most important aspects we need, we need to drive and think about in the supply chain context, why? Because I believe there are three areas which we can really, really impact. There's of course, the carbon footprint and how we can reduce carbon footprint. And if you think about the supply chain definition and the sustainability definition of carbon, we have the scope one, two, and three. And my focus is really on, on the scope three. So on the indirect emissions, everything related to supply chain, upstream and downstream. So that's the first big area. The second area is really circular economy. And I think there's not enough discussion around the circular economy and how we can really reduce the usage of material and really get into a more circular economy. And the third aspect is all about social responsibility and I think a topic super important and really involving all the people around the world. Supply chain is always global, so we need to think globally and also take social responsibility globally. So those are the three topics I'm working on and thinking about and how to apply also automation into this and make it easier for companies to work on these three topics and reduce actually carbon footprint, have more awareness on the social responsibility, and increase the circular economy aspects.

Tom Raftery: 5:05

Okay, so we'll, we'll take the first one, the carbon footprint. What are you seeing that's happening in that space? It's an interesting space, obviously, because to my mind it is the most important one, although the, the, the circularity is linked to carbon footprint as well. It is to my mind the most important given the, the climate emergency that's out there. But, and there's a lot of regulation coming down in companies. There's a lot of pressures in companies from investors from, banks from insurance companies, from employees from all sides really. How are companies responding?

Hans Thalbauer: 5:43

Yeah, that's very, very, very interesting question. Right. So let's start first in my observation working with companies around the world and how important the topic of sustainability and especially carbon footprint is for companies. In Europe, definitely this is high priority. Right. So no doubt about this at all. In North America, unfortunately, it's still not the number one priority, right? So you would still have, yes, we want to be more sustainable and yes we have our targets by 2025, by 2030, we want to achieve. Less carbon footprint and reduce the, the carbon footprint. Some companies, especially in the IT areas are really having a strong focus there. They want to run their data center only with renewable energy and so on. But in general, i t's still not the number one priority. And if you look at Asia, it's somehow in between Europe and, and North America, I want to say. And so we still around the world are not yet at a level where I would see the strong urgency, you know, and focus on Yes, now we really need to make a big difference. Despite all the weather and climate issues, which are very obvious to everyone, it's still not at, at this level. Right? So that's my first observation. When it comes down to, to the carbon footprint and especially the, the reductions I think actually are many companies who made a huge progress, right? So really a lot of progress in, in how they can actually decrease carbon footprint. When I think about supply chain. There's still a huge opportunity, and I think the last couple of years there was a a change. And the change in really restructuring and rethinking supply chain becoming more regional. Right? So one of the key topics I think we need to address is supply chain is very global and it'll remain global. However, you can regionalize much more. Source actually differently. And with that really have a different network, a supply chain network. One of the biggest issues is the transportation area. And in transportation, think about all the trucks which are empty on the street how many ships we need and going around the world. They're getting bigger and bigger and through to geopolitical issues, take longer routes. And so we have all these issues. And then we have also the aspects on how we measure carbon footprint. I think that's the third aspect, right? So first one, what is the awareness? Second one is really what companies are progressing. And I think there is progress, however, supply chains need to restructure. And the third is really how we measure carbon footprint. And I think it's still too much average data, which we are using in order to measure actually the real carbon footprint especially when it comes to scope three data.

Tom Raftery: 8:27

And how do we fix that?

Hans Thalbauer: 8:31

Yeah, that's a big, big question, right? So on the, on the first one, I think there are many, many programs in place and you just need to look at the World Economic Forum, and I think they take it very seriously. And we think the different regulations and in the different regions of the world, I think there is progress, right? It's slower than I think it should be, but there is progress, right? And I think the climate discussion is. Not the question anymore that there are climate changes. I think this is resolved. At least I would. I I would

Tom Raftery: 9:01

hope so. yeah,

Hans Thalbauer: 9:03

yeah, but so I, I want to say on the first one, I'm an optimist, so I think there is progress. The second aspect on, on the restructuring, I think companies started to understand and, and really think about the value of having a supply chain which is more efficient. And it starts with the design of the product, right? So many people forget that the supply chain itself can only correct and, and optimize about 20% of the efficiency rate in the entire supply chain. 80% is being decided when you design a product and when you create the product, right? And when you start making sourcing decisions. So this is where you actually define how your supply chain looks at the end, right? If you, if I define and design a product where all my components come from across the world of course I, my supply chain, my carbon footprint is really big. And so in these decisions we have all these aspects I mentioned at the beginning, coming together. We have the circularity, which is coming together right at the design phase. If I design for circular economy, I have a different end result. The second one, the social responsibility. How, which countries do I work? What kind of labor laws and regulations are in place in order to ensure that there is no child labor, there's no slave labor, and so on, right? So I can make the decision, right? at the design phase and the carbon footprint, the impact on, on carbon, right? So it can also make at the design phase. So my biggest focus actually is to really think how can we create actually the awareness on the design of products to make that differently. And so this is, I think the, the biggest area where we can make the biggest difference. Then I make the decision where to source and make it more local, make it actually from a transportation perspective better. And I can automate and optimize the whole supply chain in a much, much easier way. So these are some ideas, right? So where I think the, the biggest aspect is really. Thinking about the product design and which components, which ingredients I take for the, for the product. And from there I can really make a big, big difference.

Tom Raftery: 11:13

Okay. And what about, you mentioned the measurement of carbon footprints and how a lot of it is done using averages or estimates as opposed to actual data. How do we fix that?

Hans Thalbauer: 11:25

Yeah, that's a big question as well. Right. So I think there is there needs to be some more regulation. I absolutely believe there needs to be more regulations, more standards which need to be defined by the countries and states. And I mean, at the moment what you see, the greenhouse gas protocol which is good, which I like, and, but it's kind of, open for every company to, to submit their data, right? And then averages are being calculated. And there are some protocols and standards, and I like every, everything what they, what they actually do, right? So where they say, okay, if you have the correct data, use the correct data. If you don't, then go and, and use averages, and they have methods how to do the calculations and so on. So great work, I think, and, and really a good guidance for companies how to access this data. But wouldn't it be possible to really go and, and calculate the data for every product you produce? I think it is. We can calculate the cost, right? For every product. Why can't we calculate the carbon footprint and capture it actually while it's being produced and while it's being transported, and use it exactly as it is, right? So there you could see if, how many returns you had on the product how many times you, you did actually ship it across the world. What kind of components were coming from where? I think it is possible from a technology perspective. I don't see where, where we would've an issue, but it's not being done. And maybe there's some issues also with, with IT and investment in IT and sharing information, sharing data. I mean, since ever when it's about collaboration, there's a hesitance between companies to share all the information they have, right? So I think this is a, a, a big topic. This is actually an area where I think the whole discussion around artificial intelligence can make a huge difference. Why? Because I think these topic topics around communications mining, intelligent document processing, where you can submit unstructured information and still the machines can read all this unstructured information, and transform it into structured data. Right? So this is, I think, one method where you just need to think, well, I can easily submit my data via email. That's fine, right? I don't need an EDI API and what have you type of infrastructure. I can just use email and type actually, or put an attachment on there. Then I use artificial intelligence, which can read the emails, which can read the attachments, categorize the information, pull the information out, and bring it to the right reports or push it forward to, to planning and optimization algorithms, right? So the technology is there to do that and make it much more simple and easy for companies to collaborate. And so. Again, I'm optimistic that we get better, but at the moment it's still very average. And we need to work and leverage now really this discussion around artificial intelligence in supply chain and how we can make a difference there.

Tom Raftery: 14:27

Sure, and that leads back to your earlier point then about design and sourcing because as you get that information from your suppliers, it feeds back into who you're actually using to be your suppliers. When you start to see the carbon footprint implications of using supplier A over supplier B, for example.

Hans Thalbauer: 14:46

Yeah, absolutely. Right? So think about in consumer products, right? So you define a new product, you want to understand where the ingredients are coming from and so on, right? And especially when it comes to the ingredients the sourcing of those it can come from or, or variety of countries, right? And you need to bring them together. And now you need to also not only think about what is the carbon footprint of the sourcing, but also what kind of energy is needed in order to produce this component? What kind of impact does it have if I get these ingredients through deforestation or all these kind of aspects? Right? So think about it in a bigger context, right? So not just, yes I now have a carbon footprint because I get product shipped ingredient shipped from Brazil. Think about also what does, is the impact in order to harvest this, this ingredient, right? What is the impact there? Is there enough water to to do that? Can people actually do that? Is the social responsibility there and on, right? So this is, these are all the aspects which we need to consider in, in this context and think about in a holistic way. And this holistic way means I have thousands of data. And I need a machine in order to help me with that, right? So therefore, again, my big hope is that artificial intelligence can make a big difference here, which can go through these data lakes and understand actually this combination of data in a much better way. Of course, you know, algorithms are necessary in order to have the right learning of the data because you can teach the algorithms the wrong thing. And so we need to really have patterns in place which really allow the algorithm to learn the right things and then really giving the right advice to the people, right? And, and so from a technology perspective, it's there, but I think we need to combine these thoughts in a more holistic thinking.

Tom Raftery: 16:39

Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of this can be quite counterintuitive as well. I mean, you, you talked rightly about regionalization, but in some instances, just depending on the, the manufacturer, sometimes bringing something from China can be lower carbon footprint than manufacturing something locally. And you know, an example I heard of that recently, not in the manufacturing space was, but in the food space, was people talk about, you know. Bringing in avocados from South America? Well, yeah, the, the amount of the carbon footprint of transportation in avocados is high, but the rest of the production of the avocados is quite low in terms of its carbon footprint. If you're comparing that to say, locally sourced beef, well, beef has a very high carbon footprint, enormous. So in fact, those avocados. Brought in from South America would have a much lower carbon footprint than locally sourced beef. So, you know, a lot of these things are very counterintuitive and it's only by parsing all of that data to your point, can you see which is, you know, better or worse than the other. And it also depends on your suppliers actually supplying that data and it being verifiable data. And in that scenario, you gotta be very aware, I think that if you are sourcing from suppliers who are not supplying that data, you're putting your organization at risk, right?

Hans Thalbauer: 18:10

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, perfect example you just brought up because I, I think you cannot, well, my belief is in, in, in the freedom of trade and, and so on, right. So it's not really restricting everything not getting rid of all the advantages we have made over the last a hundred years, right? So I think we should not go and think, well, we need to go back a hundred years and then everything is good. I don't believe that at all. Right? So I think we need to look into the future. How can we actually reduce and, and use technology in order to reduce the carbon footprint and so on, right? So I think this is the thought, not being against something, but being for something. And so that means I need to allow actually the possibilities to, to, have the products also produced locally and globally, right. I think one of the big issues is of course, you know, we, we in, in the society overall, right? So we, we need to make it affordable, right? So, the mass production and all the outsourcing in the direction of China, at the beginning it was all because of cheap labor, right? So it's not anymore, but it used to be because of cheap labor. So that's why all the advantages were possible so that more the mass actually of people, so more people could get affordable products. Yeah. Which they couldn't get before. And so now telling everyone, well only the rich can get actually this still product, this, this product still, and, and, and the poor don't, would have a real social impact. Right. And, and I think actually this is not the way we should go. Right. So we actually need to, have these aspects in mind, what does it do to the society and how can we actually use technology in order to overcome some of these issues and make it make it better, right? So I think, yeah, like I said before, it's, it's really about bringing together all kinds of different thoughts in, in this, in, in this environment.

Tom Raftery: 20:45

Yeah. Yeah.

Hans Thalbauer: 20:46

but it's true, these examples, with beef and avocados. Right. So it's, it's a very good one because it immediately shows you where, where actually the, the issues can be. Right. So when you just look at the data and you say, this is good or bad, well, is it right?

Tom Raftery: 21:03

Yeah, exactly, exactly. The other point, what, well the second point you mentioned was around circular economy. So talk to me a little bit about that. It's, it's, it's an interesting one because it feeds very much to your point about, you know, design. You need to design things for them to be circular. And, and that feeds into sourcing decisions as well. But also it feeds into carbon footprint decisions at, at end of life or at, you know, when at end of useful life, et cetera. So talk to me a little bit about circular economy and how you see that going.

Hans Thalbauer: 21:37

So interesting enough, I was reading quite a number of reports about circular economy and where we are with the circularity at the moment, right? And interestingly enough, right? So in, in, in 2020 there were was about 9% circular economy, right? So the circularity was 9%. And it reduced the last a couple of years. Now it's about 7%, 7.2%, and that means we are still, yeah, creating products and using products from new well from, from new material and, and, and so instead of reusing material, right? So this is kind of the the biggest issue. And why is that? It has to do also with the whole recycling technology and the sorting technology and, how to actually get to the products or the raw materials again, which you need in order to create high quality products again, right? So that's what it comes down to. I think when you look at the plastic discussion, right? And how you leverage plastic. It all comes down to can you recycle it. There are technologies in place where you can get real good source material again, in order to reproduce. But in general this is not yet mass production. This is very, very low percentage actually, where you get actually the, the plastic recycled. And so here we have a, a, a big issue. This is only the plastic discussion we can go on with many more discussions. There are also some good aspects, right? So where I think. In the context of electric vehicles and the batteries, right? There is this battery passport kind of, concept, which I like a lot, which is really doing what, what we discussed before, right? So how to create actually circular economy and thinking that right from a design perspective. And so I think actually there, it has been proven with this case that it is possible to get to a much better outcome than then if you don't do that, right, if you just produce the batteries and then you throw them away, well, what a waste, right? And it's not really good for the environment. So you need to have the, the circularity in mind. And if you do that more and more for different product categories, right? So think about aluminum and steel and plastic and all these kind of things, right? Then we getting in a, in a much better en en environment and I think there's not enough focus. And there needs to be much more focus on, on how to get to a more circular economy. And I think the productivity aspect, the cost need to be considered there. I think think about all the retail and e-commerce topics, right? The, the return of products how many people ship their products back, right. And return it. And it's, it's considered to be free, free of charge, right? So I think that's another issue, right? Because well, retailer in, in the competition. Well, let's offer this free of charge. Because it's free, everyone is doing it. Right. So I think actually there are aspects where if we would really cover the, or calculate the real cost on this, and also the carbon footprint on this, maybe there would be some rethinking around this, right? So there are certain areas where we could really make a big difference in the whole aspect of, of circular economy.

Tom Raftery: 24:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I came across a, an interesting example recently. I remember when I was a kid, I dunno if it's the same for yourself. I'm a, a couple years older than you, but I remember when I was a kid, you used to get money back on bottles, glass bottles. So when I was a kid, I used to go around collecting glass bottles and bringing them to shops and making a bit of money for myself that way. And that died out for a while. And now all bottles are plastic, unfortunately, well, the vast majority are. But just last week or early this week. In Ireland, they rolled out a new deposit return scheme for tin cans and aluminum cans and plastic bottles. So now there's about 4,000 machines in shops throughout the country. And if you bring back a a can, or a bottle, and you put it into these machines, it spits out a voucher for you. And the voucher is for, I think it's 15 cent or 25 cent, depending on the size or the composition of the can or the bottle. And you can then redeem that in that shop against other purchases, or you couldn't get cash for it directly. So, I remember Ireland was the first country in the world to roll out a tax on plastic bags, single use plastic bags in shops. It started off, I think it started off just being 5 cent, five euro cent per plastic bag. But you saw a reduction in use of plastic bags of around 90 to 95% straight after the introduction of that levy. And now I gotta think with this, because this, cash back means there's an increase in the upfront cost of these cans and bottles. So you gotta think people are gonna have a, a mindset change around this. And you, you see in countries where these kind of schemes are rolled out, a big reduction in the, in the use of plastic and, and more recycling. This is, this is one potential solution I see. Is, is do, do you see that happening in other countries much as well.

Hans Thalbauer: 27:05

Oh, absolutely. Right. So I think all over Europe, right? So you see that happening. There are also some initiatives actually in the US right? So I don't want to say there's not no initiatives. There's some initiatives here also by the big bottling companies. Right? So think about Coca-Cola and PepsiCo and, and all of these, right? So they all of them are really want to make a difference and have introduced different initiatives in order to get the cans recycled, to get the bottles recycled and so on. Right? So, many companies are really going in this direction and, and thinking about this and, and not just thinking, but introducing also real methods in, in order to do that. In, in Europe especially, right? I mean, you brought up Ireland. I come, well, originally from Austria and also there we have the same kind of concepts It's right now really on the, on the glass, right? So that you return glass bottles in, in the retail shops. Now I think beginning next year, it's also the plastic bottles are similar to the example you described on in Ireland. I think there are also, you know, with use of technology instead of having bottled water, you get more and more of these systems where in the water supply you can include it. So you have your, your water directly coming actually in instead of bottles. You don't need to buy them anymore. You, you actually get it directly from, from your, from your water supply. And so it's very different systems which are being placed. And again, I am big believer in technology makes a difference and new ideas and innovation is, is really helping here a lot. So, but circular economy, I think in, in general when it comes to the scarcity of material we know that many materials are really scarce. Many of them are coming from China. There's a dependency there. We use them in high tech products a lot. We use them in aerospace and defense a lot. And I think also here there needs to be rethinking in terms of which materials to use and isn't in there another material which we could use. So, again, I think one of the sources when I think about all the problems is really in the design phase of a product where all the difference can be made. And how the carbon footprint ends up, how the circularity is and also the around the social responsibility. It all starts directly at the sourcing decisions and the design decisions, which are made very early in the process.

Tom Raftery: 29:25

Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned the social responsibility. It was your, your third point when you started off. That's always gonna be trickier than, I mean, carbon footprinting, is is hard. Measuring emissions is hard, but the social responsibility one is harder even again, I gotta think not just in terms of measurements, but also in terms of what to measure because it's, I think it's such a new and immature area that the standards to report to are still not quite there. But is there, is this something that technology can help us with?

Hans Thalbauer: 30:04

I think so. Right. So how is it being done at the moment, right? At the moment you send somebody and audit your supplier. Right. It's really once a year you audit your supplier and you only see what you see, right? So if the supplier leads you to a plant where everything is perfect and fine. And let's say the mine is perfect and fine, then well, you know, the audit is good. And if they have another plant behind that or another mine where children are working or whatever aspects are going on, you might not be aware of it. Right? And you only know once you see a report in the news and your supplier is actually in the news and maybe there's even an impact on your finished product because now you get a bad reputation in working with this type of supplier. Right? So I think there are many examples in, in, in the world, which, where, where we know that happened already. I think there are technology can really help and why and how. It's, it's of course the audits, right? But at the same time, what you can do is you can actually read local news. So think about all the risk management activities where you can actually read local news. And in local news, you might find actually some hints that in this plant there was some issues, there were some issues. There there was maybe a fire, there was something, right? So the more you get actually information and warning signals of, oh, that doesn't look right. Right. So the more you actually increase the risk level, right? And then you have a very different discussion with the audit. So, there are ways where you take information, which is there, and many times it's locally news. You use artificial intelligence again in order to read through that and determine the risk level. And then your, the combination of the risk level and the audit will determine then do I have a problem or not, right? So it's one way of doing it a little bit different and using more information in order to make the decisions.

Tom Raftery: 32:10

Yeah. Yeah, because that is as, as you said already, that is the, the one thing that AI is great at is sifting through enormous amounts of data that no one person could do. But if you get access to enough information and data sources and you feed that into an ai, properly trained, it should be able to spit out meaningful information for you to make decisions.

Hans Thalbauer: 32:34

Absolutely. The only problem is, how to know who is your supplier, right? So you might think, whatever, this is a little bit stupid what I'm saying, but it is true, right? So typically a company an OEM knows the tier one supplier, but not the tier two, right? So they, they don't know who is actually the supplier of the supplier. And then think about the raw material, right? So how much, what was the percentage of this raw material from this one mine, which came then in this product and then in this component, and then in this product and on. So through the value chain, who is your supplier? Right? So this is, I think one of the unresolved questions. It's, it's really not resolved, right? So you can go to any automotive OEM and ask them who are your tier three suppliers? Answer is, I don't know. Right? And so here we need to make actually a more effort how can we can improve the transparency and how we actually go through the supply chain and really allow a more end-to-end view on, on the supply chain itself.

Tom Raftery: 33:42

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool, cool. We are coming towards the end of the podcast now, Hans, is there any question I did not ask that you wish I did or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to think about?

Hans Thalbauer: 33:57

No, I enjoyed the conversation. I think it's an important conversation. I think the all three aspects we were covering are really dear to my heart. And I think we need to make a difference leveraging the technologies we have in place. Think about how we can leverage artificial intelligence. I'm a big believer that really can help a lot in this context. And using artificial intelligence for the good here and making the world more sustainable.

Tom Raftery: 34:22

Wow. Great. I think this is the first podcast I've recorded where we've talked a lot about ai, where no one has yet mentioned ChatGPT. This is, this has gotta be a record, and I've just gone and ruined it by mentioning it. Okay. Okay. Listen, Hans, if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?

Hans Thalbauer: 34:51

They can look me up at LinkedIn, right, Hans Thalbauer. They can also send me emails at UiPath Hans.Thalbauer@uipath.com.

Tom Raftery: 35:01

Superb. Hans, that's been really interesting. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.

Hans Thalbauer: 35:05

Thank you.

Tom Raftery: 35:06

Okay. Thank you all for tuning into this episode of the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast with me, Tom Raftery. Each week, thousands of supply chain professionals listen to this show. If you or your organization want to connect with this dedicated audience, consider becoming a sponsor. You can opt for exclusive episode branding where you choose the guests or a personalized 30 second ad roll. It's a unique opportunity to reach industry experts and influencers. For more details, hit me up on Twitter or LinkedIn, or drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com. Together, let's shape the future of sustainable supply chains. Thanks. Catch you all next time.